Breaking Barriers: Cathelina Duvert on Writing, Healing, and Empowerment

In this episode of the Passionistas Project, Amy and Nancy Harrington interview Cathelina Duvert, author of the debut novel 'The Box.' Inspired by her own experiences with depression, Duvert's novel delves into the journey of healing and self-discovery. The conversation explores Cathelina's passion for writing, her Haitian heritage, her career in publishing and teaching, and the extensive process of writing her book. Additionally, she discusses the importance of personal therapy, exercise, affirmations, and other techniques that helped her navigate through depression. Cathelina's insights aim to inspire and empower women to support each other and embrace their vulnerabilities.

Listen to the full episode HERE.

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ON THIS EPISODE

[00:19] Meet Cathelina Duvert: Author of 'The Box'

[00:48] Cathelina's Passion for Writing

[01:25] Childhood Inspirations and Early Writing

[02:46] Navigating Haitian Heritage and Identity

[04:44] Pursuing Creative Writing Against the Odds

[08:59] Career in Publishing

[12:20] Transition to Teaching

[16:40] The Journey of Writing 'The Box'

[25:20] The Power of Misconceptions in Relationships

[26:58] Intentional Endings and Real-Life Reflections

[28:12] Career Challenges and Personal Growth

[31:23] Therapy and Personal Development

[34:49] Techniques Beyond Therapy

[39:28] Early Morning Creativity and Future Projects

[41:47] Sisterly Bond and Support

[44:56] Dreams and Aspirations

[45:50] Join the Passionistas Project Sisterhood

COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT

Passionistas: Hi, we're sisters Amy and Nancy Harrington, the founders of the Passionistas Project, an inclusive sisterhood where women find support, purpose, and empowerment. On each episode, we share stories of passion-driven women who are breaking barriers and redefining success. Today we're talking with Cathelina Duvert, author of the debut novel, The Box, inspired by her own experiences with depression.

Recognized with an honorable mention in the 2024 chapter one Writing Competition by Black Writers Workspace Cathelina uses her voice to explore mental health with raw honesty. So please welcome to our show Cathelina Duvert. We're so excited to have you here today.

Cathelina: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm, I was so looking forward to this.

Passionistas: So what are you most passionate about?

Cathelina: Um, I have to say I am most passionate about writing. Um, all things writing and that's in it. And because I found myself through the years, even before I realized that I loved writing, I always went to writing to, um, to express my thoughts and feelings about certain things, anything that happened, I was writing it down, um, in story form.

And so I realized, um, a few years ago that that's my passion. That's what I live for. When I wake up in the morning, I'm excited to write.

Passionistas: And does that go back to childhood? Is that something you did when you were young and what was your childhood like?

Cathelina: So, when I was young, I used to write these corny little stories like, um, the girl who turned into a chair.

I don't know, I don't know what I was thinking there. But my father, well actually, I don't know if it was my father, but my sister and I had this big black, um, hardcover notebook. And with, with blank pages inside. And she would fill it in with stories and poems and drawings, and I would fill it in with my own little stories and, and drawings.

And in it, I would like, uh, take a blank page and use a ruler to create lines and create a story like. Silly story that I thought was so good at the time. And at one point I used to create my own little books. I would take a, a regular eight and a half by 11 sheet. I would fold it in half, create lines through it, and then write a little story, and I would give it to my father so that he could read.

I'd have to say he was probably my first, um, my, my first reader. And, um, my father loved reading books, uh, late at night after he came home from work and he would fall asleep to the books. And one day, one evening when I saw him asleep with my book on his chest, I was like, yes.

Passionistas: Or core. Yeah, that's great. So how did your Haitian heritage shape your identity and your worldview, um, when you were growing up?

Cathelina: So, it's interesting. As I was growing up, I always knew that I was, uh, of course understood that I was Haitian. Um, we had. The, the Haitians are, are very proud people. So my mom wanted to make sure that we didn't mix in with the, um, black Americans or, you know, we weren't the typical what people would find as to be typical black Americans.

And so we had to hold ourselves to a higher standard. And it wasn't, and, and mind you, my parents spoke Haitian Curl. Us in the household, but we always responded in English, especially after we started school. Um, my first language was Haitian kil, but once we started school, my sister and I, my brother, we, we dropped that language and spoke English and so they always spoke Haitian K kil to us in the household.

But uh, we responded in English and it wasn't until I went into college where I really started feeling like. I, I didn't feel Haitian enough if that, that's such a thing. I felt I was too Americanized and I wanted to learn more about my culture, and so I'd have to say that growing up as a Haitian American, I really felt quite different than like, what, what my, my family would call the, the Black American.

I felt like I didn't quite understand black Americans, and I, and I didn't quite understand. Haitians or people who came directly from Haiti, I felt somewhere in between and I could never feel, I never really felt like I could grasp both cultures, but wanting to be more of the Haitian culture, but not knowing how to do so.

So I was driven by understanding that yes, I am Haitian, not really speaking my Haitian, um, C language, but still pri being, uh, being proud of the fact that this is where my family came from.

Was pursuing creative endeavors, something that was supported in that culture, or was that. Unusual to want to go to Hofstra and study creative writing.

Cathelina: you know, it's interesting, it was supported. Um, I remember my father, my sister told me later that she had a conversation with my father who was, was in full support of me wanting to be a creative writer. But he was concerned that I would not have find, um, a job that paid well enough for that. And I remember that was interesting because he had that conversation with my sister, but not with me.

And I wondered whether he didn't want to, um, you know, influence me to not pursue my endeavors in, in a creative writing. Um, life. And, um, so, and I remember one day back when people used typewriters before the word processor and all that, I was typing all my poems on, on, on paper. And my mom came into the room and asked me, what are you doing?

And I told her, I said, I'm, I'm typing up all my poems and I'm gonna put them into a book. And she was like, yeah, go for it. So it was, it was very much, um, uh, supported. Um, but I think. I think we all understood in the, in the reality of it, and I, and that sort of as, as the years went on, I somehow, I somehow lost my confidence in myself.

And then by the time I graduated college, I I, with a creative writing degree, I was just like. Well, I can't pursue a, a, a writing life because I'm not gonna make any money in it. So I sort of talked myself out of that and, and, and I, and I joined a, a publishing company, which I think really did wondrous for me.

But, but yeah, by the time I graduated college, even though my parents fully supported what I wanted to do and believed in me, I, I lost that confidence in myself.

Passionistas: Yeah.

Cathelina: Why do you think that was? You know. When I was studying creative writing in college, you know, when people find out, when people learn that you're in college, the first question is, what's your major?

And every single time I, I kid you not every single time I said creative writing and literature, everyone always said, oh, so you wanna be a teacher? And that was the first thing that everybody would always say, and which led me to believe, well, first of all, it angered me. Like that's not the only thing that somebody can pursue with a creative writing degree.

But it also led me. To believe in, I guess, quote unquote reality. And I'm gonna put that in quotes because we can do more than just teach with a creative writing degree. Um, back then, when I graduated in 1996, I think it was, I, I didn't believe, I didn't see all that we could do with a creative writing degree.

So I pursued, um, publishing. When I, uh, started working at the com publishing company, which was in the Bronx, and then later I went to a different publishing company in, in Manhattan. I was, I started writing my novel at that time, but I didn't tell anyone that I worked with. I guess again, that, that confidence issue, we were working with real writers, not somebody who was looking to be a writer.

So I just kind of kept it to myself for a long time. Yeah.

It's funny, we had this conversation with someone recently 'cause we live in Los Angeles. We live in Hollywood. And uh, she's a, an author. She's written books, but now she's getting into screenwriting and she's written scripts, but she's like, yeah, but they've never been made.

And, and I said, Hollywood is 80% people who have. Written things that have never been made. Mm-hmm. And those people call themselves selves writers. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's really our perspective on what we do. It's like you have written, you are a writer, you know? Exactly. You don't need society to tell you you're a writer.

Cathelina: Right. It's like we're, we are looking for, for somebody. We're looking for that validation elsewhere where if, just like you said, if you're writing, you are a writer, and we need to give ourselves permission to call ourselves that, if that's what we do.

Yeah.

Passionistas: So tell us about your work in the publishing world. How did, what were you doing in that career?

Cathelina: So the first publishing company I worked was, um, HW Wilson Company. And they, as I understood it, they, they published reference materials for library users. And I was just going in like the, the, the system that they used just put in like, um, specific bits of information about each book.

And I, I had to go into the system and see whether everything was spelled right or whatever, you know, for that. And that was. Such a dull job. It was, I was so bored with it, but I was there for maybe five or six years because I didn't have the, the, the. The confidence to search for a job elsewhere. And when I finally did, I worked with, um, Avalon Publishing Group in Manhattan.

And I gotta tell you, I absolutely loved that job. I met such fantastic people. My boss there was really, really great. And I got to meet some celebrities. Um, and what I did, I was the publisher. And, you know, I was just contacting other publishers, you know, like in the UK elsewhere. Um, um, direct contact with authors, you know, uh, reading a few of their works, um, editing some books.

And, uh, I, I handled the copyright for all of the books that we published. I, and. I, I just, I just loved that job so much. I just loved it. And then I left it when my father passed away. Um, you know, 'cause I felt like there has to be more to life. And, and that's when I became a teacher. But that was, that was the gist of, of, of my work in the publishing world.

Passionistas: How did your work in the publishing world, um, influence your approach to writing your own book?

Cathelina: When I, when I saw, so a lot of the books that we published. We're nonfiction books and I was mainly a, a fiction writer. And there was at one point where, uh, we were publishing a book called Black Women's Lives or something like that.

And, and I remember feeling like, well, I could have been a writer for that book. It was a, it was a compilation of different, of different African American writers, um, and. Then I felt like, well, I, I wanna contribute something as well. And I started, and I have, I actually have a twin sister. We're fraternal twins.

And I, I decided, you know what? I'm going to write a book about twins in our experience being twins. And so, because of what I saw was being published at the publishing company, I decided to do something of my own. I've since let that project go. But it also gave me permission, if you wanna call it that, or the, the drive to write my own novel, my own story.

Um, and, and that's the story that I started writing about, uh, 25 years ago that became the box. And, um, so just seeing all these different writers, uh, seeing what they were. Putting into their work, seeing the, the books that were coming across, our desks, all of that sort of helped give me permission to write my own work and, and, and say, yeah, you, you can do it.

There's no reason why. Just because you are, you're working behind the scenes at a publishing company doesn't mean that you can't create your own book.

Right. That's beautiful. So when you left there, uh, when your dad passed away and you left there, why did you decide to go into teaching?

Cathelina: Um. So I worked for the publisher and I didn't really feel like I could move up in my position.

I'm sure I could have, I could have found other ways to move up, but at the time I kind of felt stuck and when my father passed away and I felt like, well. I've been staying at this job. Now, mind you, I did love the job, but I did feel stuck. I, that's when I felt like, okay, this is my time to move elsewhere.

And my father loved children. My father was a huge advocate of, of higher education, and so I felt like in a way to honor his memory. By becoming a teacher and um, I remember applying to the New York City teaching fellows where they would. They, um, accepted several people every year, maybe about 20 or so people every year and paid for their education, their masters to become teachers.

And the first time that I applied for it was just only months before I, I left the job. Um, and they didn't accept me and I remember crying and crying and, and. The fact that I was crying so much, I knew that that was in me, that I, I needed to move on, that I needed to become teacher. So I started working. I started, uh, going to, um, Touro College.

I applied to Touro College to become a teacher, and then another opportunity to apply to the teaching fellows arrived. And I took that step again, and I, and I applied, I took a different angle with my application process, and I was accepted, and I was so excited. And so, um. In, in, in leaving my, my job, I, at first, like the, the, in the interim from the time that I left my job and, and I, I applied to the teaching fellows.

I became a, a substitute teacher, all of that. I, I really felt like that there was a calling for me to do it, to do so, not, not just because in honor of my father, but I really felt like I was giving back to the community and I, and I thought it was the right time to do so, even though I struggled a little bit with, in terms of paying my bills for a little while, I, I still felt like it was, it was, it was my calling to do so, and, and once I became a teacher, that first year of teaching was like everything.

I had such a good time and, and I loved it.

Passionistas: So, and what grades did you teach? What subjects, what was, what was that experience like?

Cathelina: So, uh, when I, when I first became a substitute teacher, I was teaching, um, like kindergarten to fifth graders. And the problem with that was that they were so cute. I didn't want to teach them, I just wanted to play with them and, you know, just chill with them, hang out with them.

So when I did apply to the teaching fellows and I had to, to state what grades I wanted to. To teach and I, and, um, it was high school students and, um, I, I started teaching ninth graders and I found it interesting because all the other teachers that were around me hated teaching ninth graders because they, they, the ninth graders were, were they, they had, um, first of all, it, it was challenging because they were just coming into the school, into the high school and they.

They had the raging hormones and, and you know, not quite figuring out who they were, but I really enjoyed the ninth graders and I, and what I loved about the ninth graders was that I could talk to them and they had all these really wonderful ideas and thoughts that weren't. Sabotaged yet by, by society and, and, and themselves and people around them.

And I just, I just enjoyed being in their company. Now I teach seventh and ninth graders and I enjoy the seventh graders just as much, and other teachers are like, oh gosh, the seventh graders. But I'm. I kind of like them. And you know, in every grade you'll find a few students who, who are annoying, who like question your reason why you became a teacher.

But then there are also those that are absolute, you know, sweethearts that really make you understand and remember why you chose that profession. So.

Passionistas: Yeah. That's so great. So now you said you started the box writing the box 25 years ago.  Were you working on that the whole time, like picking it up here and there, or was it like you put it in a box in a in a box for years and then you finally took it out again?

Cathelina: Yeah, a little bit of both. So when I first started writing it, um, I, I, it was first. Uh, I, I stuck with depression and I didn't know that at the time. I never talked to an adult. I, I just didn't understand it. And, and, and that was one of my ways of understanding what I was going through, by creating a character who was dealing with the same things that she was.

And when I was diagnosed with depression, I was just like, okay, that's what my main character has. She has depression. And that's when I did my research on depression and all that. But, um, after. So, and, and then I worked on it for like, maybe, I'm gonna say two years straight. And then I became a teacher and then I put it on the back burner for years.

And when I did pick it up again, I was just like, oh, yeah. And reading it and, and reading what my main character was going through in her depression. It, it sort of highlighted my own depression and so I would put it away. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna face that yet, and it wasn't. Through. It was because of years of therapy when I finally decided to see a therapist and, and really, um, dig deep into what was.

Causing my depression that I was able to pick it up again. I picked it up again in 2016 and that's when I really focused on it. I, I, I, I looked at it again and I said, you know what? I'm not gonna give up on this story. I really enjoyed the story. I, I, I liked the characters and I wanted to see the project till the end.

So in 2016, I picked it up again for the, for three years straight. I worked on it by sending it to two different editors. I had a few beta readers and, um, and then that's when I decided. Instead of, instead of going through the traditional route of finding an agent, and because I already put it aside for like 20 something years, and to wait more years again to find an agent and then for it to get published, I was like, I'm gonna do this on my own.

And that's what I did.

Passionistas: Yeah. So Al, after all that time in 2016, when you came back to it, did you finally find that process cathartic rather than shying away from your depression? You,

Cathelina: yes. I'm glad that you asked that because yes, because I, I did put it away. I was too depressed, but I think it was because.

Of all the work that I was doing with a therapist and understanding now at the, at that time, that writing was my passion. I did find it cathartic because I felt like, because, and, and I remember one, one year specifically in 2016, it was the summer of 2016, and I was in a really, really depressive state and I had this idea, let me.

Let me take everything that I'm feeling right now, write down what I'm feeling and give it to my main character Mia. And so all the other years when I was just writing about how she's depressed, how she's depressed, I was finally able to channel what literally I was feeling on the inside in order to give it to her.

And it felt so good to bring it out like that. And reading it again, didn't bring me through. To depression. It actually made me feel empowered that I was able to put what I was feeling into words, so I really felt good about that.

That is such an important lesson for people. And then imagine how the people who read it, who can, it can relate to.

It must feel, have you had feedback from people who have read it? I

Cathelina: did. There was one girl who wrote me and I cried after I read her message. She said, your book literally saved my life. She said, after reading your book, I spoke to my therapist and um, and admitted myself. To a hospital. So when she sent me that message, she was, she had been admitted into a hospital for her depression, and she said that it literally, she said it, it, it, she felt, seen it, it made her understand what she was going through at work and, and, and that she was.

Grateful for the words that I put down on paper. And I, I felt like I, I felt like crying and I wanted, I wanted people to be like, wow, this was a powerful story. But to get someone who wrote me and said that, it literally saved her life. And then when I, when I wrote her back and I was like, wow, thank you for that and this and that.

And then she wrote back saying, no, I don't think you understand it. It really did do something for me. And I felt so grateful for that, and I felt like, you know what? I felt like it, you know, it, there was a reason why I had to self-publish it at this time and not wait for, to get an agent and to be traditionally published.

There was a reason why it was put in me, in my heart and my soul to publish it at this time. And I always felt like if one person, one person got out of it what I wanted them to, then it would have been worth it. Right. So I really felt grateful for that. Yeah.

Can you explain for people who haven't read the book, can you describe the book a little bit?

Cathelina: The story of the box is about a young woman, Mia Hill, who suffers with depression and is still traumatized by her turbulent relationship with her mother, who has passed on, and one evening she finds a portrait. Well, she doesn't find the portrait. Her mother had gifted to her portrait just before her mother passed, and she never put it up.

In because she felt like if she put it up, that would be her forgiving her mother for all the past wrongs. Her mother did her. But in putting in finally putting it up, she noticed a note, um, in, in the corner, and she opened it up and realized that her mother had written her a note, sort of apologizing to her for the way that she, she had.

Treated her and, and telling her, if you wanna find out more about me, find it in my box. And this leads her on an emotional journey of finding more about her mother and thus, um, sort of coming to terms with her relationship with her, her father, and her sister, and all the people in her life.

Passionistas: So talk about Mia a little bit. You know, she, you said that she carries a lot of your own pain. What surprised you most about how she evolved as a character?

Cathelina: Ooh, wow. That's a good question, Mia. It, it had built up a wall, well, a box as I explained in the book, but I feel like I created somebody who was so. Um, devoid of, of laughter and happiness in her life that she was a really tough person and that's how I felt like I wanted to be.

Right. And the way that she evolved in the story was through allowing herself to become that vulnerable person. So. And, and, and I was very careful. The, her love interest is the one who helps her bring that vulnerability out of her. But I didn't want him to be her savior. And so I, what surprised me was that at some point I realized that he wasn't her savior.

He may have been able to channel it out of her, but I realized that her vulnerability was. Was my vulnerability all along that I created this person who was tough and in her workplace, she was tough and she didn't let anyone stand on top of her. And, and that's how I wanted myself to be. So I created this woman who I wished I was not realizing that it was in her vulnerability that she was able to be saved and that was my vulnerability.

So that's what kind of surprised me about her, her, the way that she evolved in the story.

Passionistas: Was there a scene that was particularly difficult to write or cathartic to write, or?

Cathelina: There was a difficult scene to write the scene where she, she, she and her sister have been butting heads for a very long time, and obviously, um, they will have to patch up their relationship before the book ends.

And I really loved writing that scene because it helped me come to terms with all the lies that I've told myself, the stories that I've told myself about my life, um, and that were not true. So in this scene. Mia tells her, you know, I, I, I never, you know, it was always difficult for me because mom always liked you best, and, and her sister says, what Mom always liked you best.

And, and it's these, the reason why I love this scene so much is because we tell ourselves stories based on the things that we see, our perspective on things. And without really. Finding out what was going on, the true story of it. And, um, it was difficult to write because I had to find a, a commonality between the two characters.

Um, and, and I didn't really understand how to write that. And that scene sort of wrote itself, and, and that's how it was diff it was difficult to. To start writing that, but once I did, I loved that scene because it, it showed that there are so many misconceptions when it comes to relationships. All I, I think that all the problems in, in any relationship.

Derived from a misconception that was not verbalized, and that's what happened. And that's what these two young women realized that their, their misconceptions about their relationships with their mother was not verbalized. And, and it brought out the worst in them, um, until they, they, they really believed these stories to be true.

So I, I really liked that scene and it was powerful scene. And, and I, um. I have to admit that I didn't write that scene until maybe two months before the book was actually published. So I was really happy with, with the way that scene and, and, and it was perfect in, in terms of, of, uh, bringing their, their story arc to a close.

And so I really like that scene.

Yeah, I love the, I love the dynamic between them. Um, it was natural. I, one of my favorite things about the book, and this doesn't give anything away, is that every, every relationship, every scenario doesn't have the perfect, happy ending. It's very true to life. It's like.

You're healing a relationship. It's not healed. Right. You're, you're learning the secrets of the family, but that doesn't instantly make everything okay.

Passionistas: You're starting to communicate, you know, part of the book is the father keeping secrets. Mm-hmm. Behalf, you know, 'cause that's the dynamic that was created in the relationship. Just starting to chip away at those secrets, opens up some things, but it doesn't make everything a hundred percent right.

Cathelina: Right. And I was so intentional about that. I didn't want it to be a completely happy ending. I wanted it to be an ending where, where the reader knows they're, they're on their way, they're on their way to their happy ending, but it's not there yet.

Yeah, I was, uh, yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for mentioning that because I was so intentional about that. Beautiful.

Can I, I have one other thing too that I wanted to, um, ask or say. I think the work dynamic that you created is so powerful with her position. In, in the publishing world and the business that she's in.

Um, can you talk about tackling that aspect of it? 'cause in addition to the personal life, you really focus on her career journey, which I think is really important.

Cathelina: Yes. Thank you. So, in her career, she's a very high profile. Um, editor and she, she's very proud of her work and she knows that she does really good work.

Um, and her boss is sort of like, he doesn't really want to give her the promotion that she feels that she deserves, and so she fights for it and I felt that it was important to. To, because as I said before, um, I created a character who was very tough, you know, when it came to her work. And I felt, I, I didn't feel like that, and I still don't feel like that in my place of work.

I feel kind of quiet like the yes person. Like you want me to do that? Yes, I'll do that. Oh, you, you don't want me to do that? Okay. Oh, you wanna give it to her instead? Fine by me. You know, that's the type of person I am. And then I try to spin it in a positive way. Well, it's good because whatever. But, um, I really felt that it was important that she not only tackled things in her personal life, but she does tackle things in her work life, even though she was a very good, she was very good at her job and, and she knew it.

Um, so, and, and, and what I tried to do was. Create a scenario where many people will have, um, a situation like this at some point in their work lives where they have to fight for their position or they feel like somebody is, is not treating them the the way that they need to, and either they have to make a decision, either fight for their job.

Um, stay where they are or leave completely. And Mia had that very difficult decision and, and I made it so that by the end, end of the book, it was easy for her to make that decision that that, and that she was happy with the decision that she would make.

Passionistas: I was gonna ask you if it changed your perspective on yourself writing this,  this book.

Cathelina: Yeah. I, I felt very empowered. Um, I'm gonna say that I'm not like Mia in that sense, where. She, she is 100% confident in her capabilities at work. I still have issues with my confidence at work as a teacher. Um, we are always, uh, observed by one of the supervisors, by one of the assistant principals of whatever.

And even though when. They are not in the classroom. I know exactly what I'm doing with my students. When the obs, when the, um, assistant principal comes into the room, for some reason I feel like, oh my gosh, I messed up here and I messed up there, and the students weren't paying attention. And oh my gosh, I forgot this LA and, and I, so.

I'm still working on gaining that confidence that Mia has in my work life.

Yeah, I think we're all aspiring to be Mia. Um, I also thought it was interesting that she works with the same therapist for a very long time, but ultimately changes therapists mm-hmm. That someone who might be better suited to her needs at that moment in her life.

Um, can you talk a little bit about that?

Cathelina: Sure. So there was something that it wa the idea that, um, her therapist wasn't a person of color like she is. Right. I, myself have had therapists. Several therapists and none of them were people of color. I felt fine with them up to a certain point. There were some things that I would talk, talk to my therapist about that she didn't quite understand because of the cultural difference.

And I would have to explain to her, but it never, but, but my therapist, don't get me wrong, the therapist that I had for a very long time, she was magnificent. She knew me so well. She knew how to, uh, challenge me in order for me to grow. Um, but I wanted. This also to be something that Mia had to contend with, even though she was starting to allow her therapist to really help her battle her demons.

I also want her to feel like, you know what, um, I, I think I need to find a person of color as well, and. By the end of the, the, the story the she did make, she does make a transition to a different therapist, and I wanted it to be not necessarily because her previous therapist wasn't working for her or that, you know, and, and I, and I, yeah.

Not, not only because her therapist wasn't working for her, but because she had gone through such a major transition, I felt that it was important that. Different, uh, that she finds a different therapist in order to, to move on with that transition that she's made in her life. Um, the therapist that I have, that she's with right now, I felt it was important that she does challenge Mia.

And she did challenge m and to a point where Mia was like, Uhuh, Uhuh, you're not allowed to ask me these questions. Right? And I wanted to, I wanted that to make sure that. To understand that there is therapy with a therapist who will challenge you, but it doesn't matter how great your therapist is, you have to do the work.

When the therapist that I had for a very long time, and the only reason why I left her is because she no longer took my insurance. And when she told me that she was no longer taking my insurance, I cried. I was like, no. And she was a, a, a, um, a Jewish woman. Mm-hmm. But they would, when I first started seeing her and, and, and my therapist was challenging me, I used to be like, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. And one day she called me on it and she's like, I noticed that you don't respond when I challenge you with certain things. And it's really a one-way street at that point, what are you doing for yourself? Why are you here? And then that's when I really started opening up and I, I broke down down that barrier and I finally let her in.

And this was like maybe after two years of seeing her, I finally let her in. That's when I noticed the change within me. So I felt that it was very important that I put that into the book that that somebody may be going to therapy, but it may not be helping them if they're not willing to put down that barrier and do the work themselves.

Passionistas: Right. Yeah. And speaking of doing the work, you also talk about the techniques that you use personally beyond therapy. Mm-hmm. So can you talk a little bit about that and why you decided to put those things into the book?

Cathelina: Sure. Uh, thank you so much for asking that because I, I felt it was important as. Not because this book is so heavy about her depression.

And not only did I want to, I mean, I don't have to prove myself to anyone, but I, I wanted to show that this was something that I suffered with as well. So I was coming from a place of understanding, I was coming from a place of experience and that, besides the therapy. It may not work for everybody, so somebody may not wanna sit down and talk to a therapist.

Maybe their therapist is, um, a pastor at a church, you know. Um, but I wanted to show that there are so many different things that you can do for yourself that you don't have to go to a therapist, nurse necessarily, or take medication. I was on medication for quite. A bit of time and when, when I lost my insurance, when I quit my job and I decided to become a teacher, I didn't have insurance for a long time.

And I felt that it was very important for us to think about what can we do for ourselves without insurance. And so, yes, some of the things that I do, um, I, I did, um, uh. Um, now I'm blanking out on them. I writing one of my Passionistas. I really feel like somebody that every, we all have different Passionistas Plug into what your Passionistas, what is the one thing that you cannot live without on a daily basis?

Do that thing. See what, how it makes you feel. See if it brings out that, that happiness, that happy little girl or, or boy from inside of you. Right? Um, one of the other things that I did was I, uh, I read a lot of. Inspirational books. Um, I went to acupuncture. The acupuncture was for, uh, cramping during, you know, my menstrual cycle, but I didn't realize that there was like one month that I missed it and, and I was getting all depressed and, and, and I didn't realize that the, the acupuncture was helping with the depression as well.

So you can try acupuncture. Um, what are some of the other things that I have in the book? Um, I. I tried. Um, wait, I, I have, how important was, uh, how important was exercise to your Oh, yes. Thank you so much for that Exercise was something so surprising. So surprising for me. Um, I started exercising purely for vanity reasons.

Um, but I realized that after a few months that I wasn't in that depressive state as I used to be. And I know, and I understand that there's, um, you know, chemical you receive, you, uh. Release chemical, um, in chemicals in your brain that help you, that give you the happy hormone. And so exercise was something that I did on a daily basis and, and I realized that it helped me overcome feelings of depression as well.

Eating well has helped me overcome feelings of depression, so, and there were a number of things, what I like to call my cocktail of things that I did that really, really helped me. Overcome depression without having to take medication. But I will have to say, I really, really believe in talk therapy. I, I think talk therapy is something that everybody should, should, uh, should at, at least experiment with, you know?

But yeah, tho those were some of the things that I decided to keep in place. Affirmations, meditation, I love all those things. And I think if it weren't for those that I, I feel like. I would not have been able to overcome my depressive moments when I did in order to continue with my life and finally publish this book that I'm so proud of.

Do you, did you have an affirmation during that time or do you have an affirmation now that is the one that you go to most often?

Cathelina: Yes, I do. Uh, um, this was, I don't know when I started saying this, but. When I, when I was younger, I used to always say, um, Lord, please be with me. Please be, be by my side.

Whenever, um, I was going on a job interview or whenever I was doing something that caused anxiety and then I realized, well, God is always with me, so I would repeat those affirmations. Till this day, the Lord is with me. The Lord is always by my side. The Lord is with me. The Lord is always by my side.

Anytime I have some anxious feelings, like I said, going on a job interview, going somewhere for the first time, but that I'm really nervous about. Um, anything. The Lord is with me. The Lord is by my side. The Lord is with me. The Lord is by my side. It really calms me and it makes me, it makes me take a deep breath and it, it, it, it helps me overcome that, that state of anxiety.

Passionistas: Yeah. We read that you write at 4:45 AM which is really impressive. So what are those early hours unlock for you

Cathelina: for some reason? Um, I feel like at that time in the morning, I feel like I'm sort of like an open door where ideas just come to me. They just come to me. Um, and I remember when I was writing my novel, the Box and when I was finishing up and another book idea came to me at that time in the morning and I was just like, oh my gosh, yes, I'm here for it.

And I, I and, and I, and I start writing and writing and writing and writing. And of course these, everything that I'm writing, I, I have to look at again and I revise whatever. The initial idea is just come to me so early in the morning, so I really feel like I'm at my creative best at such early time in the morning.

And so that's, that's why I did it. And um, so I would get up really early to walk my dog and then. After coming, and then I would, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time, and ideas would come and float floating to me as well. And sometimes I would have to stop walking the dog and, and write something really quickly in my phone to, to, you know, get that idea in.

But I, I really believe that that's when I'm an open door where ideas should come to me. So that's what that's about.

So did you just hint the fact that there's another book coming? Can we expect another book from you sometime? Um, hopefully not

Cathelina: in another 20 years, hopefully another five years or so. But yes, I am working on a new book. So, yes.

Passionistas: Do we ever see the book about your, your relationship with your twin sister that you gave, gave up?

Cathelina: So the, the new book that I am writing is about twin sisters. Oh, good. And, and they're, and they're about Haitian American twin sisters. Their ties to their Haitian culture. Um, and so I'm really basing it on, on my experience with my Haitian culture and of course with my sister.

My sister and I are fraternal, but the twins that I'm writing about are identical and it'll be all about their identity and how they see themselves separate from their twin and, and, and how they see their Haitian identity and, and connecting with their Haitian culture.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your relationship with your sister.

Cathelina: Oh, we are like, like this, like really close. We're very, very close. Um, she is, I think she's my rock. She is the person, like, she's, she's my strong counterpart. You know, I, I feel at my weakest. I, I know that I can count on her to, to help me up. Um. We, of course, we have our moments where we bicker, we're not happy with each other, or sometimes we're in each other's faces or whatever.

But, um, my, my sister is a really supportive person. Um, I recently separated from my, my husband, and, um, that was, it was difficult for me to make that choice to separate from him because I felt like he was, um, draining me. I felt like, uh, it wasn't a very good fit. And one, one morning I was on, on the phone with her and I was like.

You know, I, well, I don't know what to do. You know, I, I can't come back home because she had turned, we lived together and when I moved out, she turned my bedroom into her fitness studio. And so I was like, you have your fitness studio. She's like, are you kidding me? She's like, I could change that. I, it's, if you decide to come back, it's no longer fitness studio.

It'll be your room again. And I was. Really? And she goes, yes, if you need to come back, come back. And that made it so easy for me. And so my transition from separating from my husband to coming back to, to living with my sister was such a smooth transition. And it, it, it, if it wasn't for her, it wasn't, if it wasn't for her support, I don't, I don't know how I would've survived it, but it made it.

So bearable. So bearable. And so my, my sister is, is my rock. I mean, we're very close. Every year we go to Ohio for a twins festival. Yeah. And, um, and every year it is like the highlight of our summer. And, and, and it is just, it just makes us feel more in tune with each other and, and we just. I, I'm just in love with my sister.

She's just such a great person.

Passionistas: That's amazing. We love sister stories, twin stories. We always say we're twins separated by five years. 'cause our bond is so close and we can't even imagine what a twins bond is like 'cause, right? Yeah. Ours is so intense. I don't know what that.

Cathelina: Yeah. I, yeah, I, I, yeah. I love, I love sister stories as well.

I, I remember when I first saw a picture of the two of you, I could have sworn that you were twins, that I thought that you looked so much alike.

Passionistas: Yeah.  

We get that a lot.

Cathelina: I can imagine. Yeah.

Passionistas: Where can people find the book? How can they get in touch with you?

Cathelina: Okay, so, um, you can find the book on Amazon. It, it is on Amazon, it's on bookshop.org.

It's on Barnes and Noble. I also have, uh, my website, kathleen er.com. And I, I have a, a store set up there as well. People can purchase it there. And I'm on Instagram as well. Kathleen, ve and I have a LinkedIn, Kathleen ve so yeah. Excellent.

Passionistas: So we have one last two-part question for you, which is, what is your dream for yourself? And what is your dream for women?

Cathelina: My dream for myself is to become a speaker on stages, talking about how I've overcome depression and helping other people help themselves to overcome depression without necessarily the use of drugs. I, you know, if we can stand it. I believe, I believe, um, antidepressants plays a role in helping people overcome depression, but it is not something that we should live on.

And, um. My dream for women is for us to create a whole sisterhood. My dream for women is for us to continue praising each other and supporting each other instead of, instead of trying to be each other's enemies and fighting against each other for the job or for the man or anything like that, or, but so that we can all support each other in this, in this, in this world, and just bring each other up.

That's my dream.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast. As real life sisters, best friends and business partners, we know how rare it is to have a built-in support system. But we also know that so many women activists, solopreneurs, and purpose-driven people are out there doing it alone and wishing they had a community like ours.

That's exactly why we created the Passionistas Project Sisterhood. A space where support, trust, and authenticity come first. When you join, you become part of our extended family. You'll get the tools you need to grow your business, develop personally, and create real social impact. You'll also learn from our power Passionistas leaders, change makers, and experts who share their wisdom on everything from letting go of perfectionism to embracing community and stepping fully into your purpose.

Whether it's through online meetups, chat spaces, Passionistas TV, and the Passionistas Podcast Network are our exclusive workshop series. You'll be surrounded by like-minded women and gender non-conforming folks who are just as passionate as you are about living with purpose and making a difference.

Visit thepassionistasproject.com to join our free membership and become part of this growing global sisterhood of passionate change makers. We'll be back next time with another inspiring Passionista who's breaking down the barriers and defining success on her own terms. Until then, stay passionate.